A sad orange ginger cat being held by a human.
A sad orange ginger cat being held by a human. Photography ©Dovapi| iStock / Getty Images Plus.

How Long Do Cats Live? Facts About the Average Cat Lifespan

How long do cats live? How long do indoor cats live? What about the life expectancy for an outdoor cat? And what factors play into how long a cat lives? Let's talk about cat lifespan here.


“A novel must be exceptionally good to live as long as the average cat.” This aphorism is widely attributed to Philip Stanhope, the Fourth Earl of Chesterfield. Lord Chesterfield lived through the period of English literary history when novels were just becoming popular, and there was already a sense that all forms of media were ephemeral. What did Chesterfield have in mind? How long do cats live, on average?

What are the facts on the lifespan of a cat? Here at Catster, we’ve done the research on the average cat lifespan and have all the information you need to answer the question, “How long do cats live?” We’ve crunched the numbers and can tell you that, like novels, the life expectancy of cats depends on a variety of circumstances, including environment, diet and health. We’ll give you information on everything ranging from the general question “How long do cats live?” to the average age of the “current” oldest living cat, the average of the outlying ages, and the averages for indoor and outdoor cat lifespan.

How long do cats live? The average lifespan of a cat varies depending on many different factors.
How long do cats live? The average lifespan of a cat varies depending on many different factors. Photography ©sjallenphotography | Thinkstock.

So, how long do cats live? What is the average lifespan of a cat?

How long do cats live? Environment, maintenance, health, and whether the cat is spayed or neutered — all of these factors matter when thinking about the life expectancy of a cat. Sterilization can be a significant factor. Spaying and neutering removes the risk of developing diseases that can affect a cat’s reproductive system in old age.

It has become a truism on the Internet, that, with access to current medical and dietary advancements, the ideal cat “can” or “may” live to up to 20 cat years and older. Based on a survey of 10 reputable sites that discuss the average domestic cat, the numbers are more inconsistent, ranging from 10 to 20 years. The average domestic cat lifespan comes out to 15.1 years.

Cat breed is certainly a factor when it comes to answering the question, “How long do cats live?” We could list out the lifespan of each cat breed, but then we’d be here forever. Our research suggests that mixed breed cats are, in general, hardier and live longer than purebred cats. Have a question about a specific breed’s longevity? Please consult our list of purebred and hybrid cat breeds.

When answering, “How long do cats live?” we’re concerned, like Lord Chesterfield, with “the average cat.” On average, female cats live one to two years longer than male cats. On average, indoor cats live longer than outdoor cats. On average, wild, homeless and feral cats live dramatically shorter lives than domestic cats.

What if they’re indoor cats?

When it comes to the question “How long do cats live?” all the research we’ve done overwhelmingly suggests that indoor cats live nearly three times as long as outdoor cats. How long do cats live if they’re indoor cats? Indoor cats are typically sterilized, vaccinated and removed from the stresses, risks and dangers of the outside world. They are fed regularly and have easy access to water that is fresh and clean.

Related: 5 Reasons to Adopt a Senior Cat

They require more attention, more distractions, and must be encouraged to get sufficient exercise to avoid obesity. Fortunately, attentive cat owners provide all of those things. The numbers varied widely among all the sites we visited, ranging from 14 to 20 years. Based on the numbers we chronicled, the average lifespan of an indoor cat is 16.875 years.

How long do cats live — if they’re outdoor cats?

A number of challenges tend to limit the average cat lifespan of an outdoor cat. Of course, “outside” means different things depending on where a cat lives and when we’re answering “How long do cats live?”

Do you live in an urban, suburban, rural or remote location? How many neighbors have outdoor cats? Do you live in a place with an abundance of predatory wildlife? Are there feral or stray animals nearby? Is the weather amenable year-round to an outdoor lifestyle? How close do you live to roads and thoroughfares?

These are all limiting factors, as are increased exposure to fleas, ticks, and other parasites and illnesses. Outdoors, cats can also get into cat fights and scrapes with other cats and are at increased risk of accidents.

However, they also have the freedom to explore, mark out favored perches and get natural exercise. Because there are so many more unpredictable variables, the numbers are generally not good, and cat lifespan ranges much more widely, anywhere from three to 10 years. The average cat lifespan outdoors is 5.625 years.

An elderly woman with her cat.
How long can cats live? Photography by Ramon Espelt Photography / Shutterstock.

How long can cats live?

I can hear you saying, “But my cat …” These numbers are all averages. My cat, Klesko, has always been an outdoor cat and she’s 15 years old. There are always outliers that defy averages when it comes to answering “How long do cats live?”

The Guinness Book of World Records lists the oldest recorded cat age was attained by Creme Puff, a cat who passed away in Austin, Texas, at 38 years and three days old, a truly grand, almost incomprehensible age. The age of the “current” oldest living cat is much more variable because that information can go out of date at any given moment.

Related: How to Increase Cat Life Expectancy

Reviewing the last several years’ worth of information, I’ve seen the “current” oldest cat have ages ranging from 23 to 36. In the last decade, the average oldest living cat is 29.857 years old. Who is the current record holder? Rather than risk our own obsolescence, we suggest that you check with the Guinness site. Its page on “Oldest Cat Living” wisely and expressly states that the current record holder is a flexible and changeable position.

Tell us: How long have your cats lived? We want to hear how old your cats are! What is the longest-lived cat you’ve ever owned, heard of, or seen? Share your stories and memories in the comments!

Featured photo: Photography ©Dovapi| iStock / Getty Images Plus.

This post was originally published in 2017. 

Read Next: How to Calculate A Cat’s Age in Cat Years



255 thoughts on “How Long Do Cats Live? Facts About the Average Cat Lifespan”

  1. We have 2 cats: Selina Kyle (torty domestic short hair) and Isabella who are both indoor cats. Selina turned 16 in August – had hyperthyroidism last year but fit as a fiddle after treatment. Isabella turned 15 earlier this month. The thing about Isabella is that she was diagnosed with kidney disease at 18 months (congenital), so is on meds and monitored regularly, but has been stable for most of the past 13 years!!

  2. Do you have any info on your case. My cat died because of a VCA Animal Hospital. I looked at the Murrin Law website , didn’t see animal malpractice listed. I would like to contact them regarding my case.

    1. I’m so sorry about your cat. My cat also died because of an incompetent uncaring vet who lied about my cat’s test results and told me to put her to sleep because there was nothing that could be done about her condition. I later read the ultrasound and echocardiogram and saw she lied and left out info that suggested follow up diagnostic care. It’s been almost a year now and I cry every single day and think about my beloved kitty constantly. I have filed a complaint with my state’s Department of Public Health and Licensing.

      I wish you luck with finding a lawyer to file a lawsuit. I will probably do that as well as these agencies don’t usually do much to a vet for misconduct, and for killing an animal. So many incompetent vet’s out there who are not in the business of saving animals lives. If you ever get another kitty..Please read all the medical reports yourself and have another vet give you a second opinion on what the report indicated. I learned the hard way. Even if a vet comes across as very caring and competent…you can’t trust them with telling you your pet needs to be euthanized. Get another opinion.!

  3. Taking a cat into your family is such a rewarding a valuable experience. They will give you so much in return. I learned from my first little friend that their time with us is unpredictable and each moment should be cherished. Once I adopted barn cat, whom did not fit into barn culture, and she lived with me for 22 years! Aspen died from congestive heart failure technically, but I think really it was stress from losing her younger life companion Cookey whom was adopted many years later from the same ranch but as a young kitten. The point is that life span has so much to do with genetics. Aspen and Cookey ate identical meals and lived the same life style. Sometimes when Aspen was older she did get quicker veterinary help than Cookey. That is one of my guilt complexes to live with.
    But, you do what you can do. Hopefully it is your best effort. Cats cannot talk to you, so their people need to watch them very carefully. My current pal is 16 plus years, adopted in his ninth year. I knew that older cats might need expensive care so he my only pet. Columbo had a few pre-diagnosed allergy problems but I felt like the love he would give give me would be worth the cost of controlling that. And, that thinking was correct. Columbo now has other layered problems which are monitored and minimalized by good quality veterinary advice and maybe more importantly the focused attention I have to his well-being.
    This seems to be a good forum. My heart aches for anyone on the site searching for help or suffering from the loss of their friend. I have been there, I will be there. A relationship with an animal of another species is so pure that it is worth sacrifice. Do whatever you can do to love them, help them and, try to understand them.

  4. We adopted a cat from a shelter that was young but not a kitten and had her for twenty years, so she was 20+ years old. We lived in the country so she was both an indoor and outdoor cat. In the spring she would venture out and stay out all day, we could leave food out for her and not see her for days. On some late fall morning we would open the door to let her out in the morning and she would just back up after feeling the cold air and she didn’t go to the door until she felt the spring sun. I think her longevity was due to this dual life that gave her the best of both worlds.

    1. I have two Tabby’s my oldest and definitely the alpha male he has been fixed since he was 4yr old.he is 7…1/2.my other is a chocolate Tabby he is fixed also.he is about 4yr old and is the lover lol is all he ever wants tigger is a rascal always in to stuff the high spot in the house is his favorite ????????????.

  5. My cat’s just about to turn 21! He’s slowed down a fair bit but is still perfectly happy, and was still acting like a kitten up until a few years ago. He’s older than me!

  6. In March I inherited an 18-year-old female. She is doing well, a bit of arthritis, but can still jump onto my bed.

  7. My cat smokey looks like he might be a russian blue mix. He will be 17 this year. He still plays and jumps around like he is a young cat .

  8. We had our cat who just walked up and moved in one day, despite us not feeding h at that point (didn’t want to steal someone’s pet). That was 14 and a half years ago. He looked like he was fully grown at the point. Always outside except for 5 years, when we had to keep him indoors to keep him safe from a mean neighbor down the road. He wasn’t happy inside, so when my second daughter was born 2 years ago, he took advantage and let himself back out. The mean neighbour was luckily gone by then.
    He’s been drinking a lot of water lately and about a week ago simply disappeared. I haven’t seen him since????.
    My heart is broken. He was always there for me, not a snuggly cat, but a sweet cool guy! My husband thinks he went somewhere to go to sleep one final time. I’ve looked everywhere and no trace of my loyal furry friend. He was at least 16 years old.

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  10. My first cat Died of cancer at 12. My next one died at 14. I currently have and 11 and 15 year old who are both healthy. Although my 15 year old has a bit of arthritis kicking in. All have been indoor only cats

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  12. Our Bob was 23 when he died. He was found clinging to a log at the edge of a swamp and was estimated to be about a year old. More recently Hester (indoors only) died last year at 17. Her sister Sfat (indoors only) is now 18. Since about the mid 80s all of our cats have been indoor only and rescues.

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  15. Reincarnation and soul division is here….as well as cloning at $25K. They say the soul is eternal…..in the metaphysical field.

    1. I had a 17 yr old Lilac Siamese develop thyroid issue…gave him his meds everyday, his retinas detached about a year ago & didn’t realize it until I saw him bumping his head on the wall & acted “lost”….confirmed by vet.

      He was an indoor/outdoor until I moved into a beautiful apt. with more room, huge window sills for him to sit & watch outside…I live on the 6th floor. One morning I couldn’t find him anywhere & I panicked…my friend came to visit & felt something moving below where she was sitting…she looked down & he got himself wedged between the couch & wall. His back hinds looked crushed & he couldn’t stand up. I went nuts & hand fed him water & food, wrapped him in his blanket. Called the vets, they told me it was too close to closing time & Dr. had another emergency after closer. I begged them to bring him in…he was severely hurt & in pain, but it didn’t matter, she said bring him in the morning. I cuddled with him on the couch all evening…I moved a little, and he flopped on the floor, lost all control of his bowels, could not move at all, and I’ll never forget him laying on his side looking at me.

      I picked him up & just held him while he had a seizure & his legs wouldn’t stop moving….then he made noises with his breathing, took his last breath & was gone. He did not go out easy….he was not given the dignity of a pain free death…..he struggled & was hurting. The look on his face when he took his last breath was almost as traumatic as watching my mother die after taking her off life support. I wrapped him in his blankie, put him in his box he loved to play in, and put him by the front door. I could not afford to go to another vet & pay the hundreds of dollars they wanted up front. I had an arrangement with this vet to make payments every month & paid my bill every month. I had to take him in the morning & told them he died at 11:00 the night before. I had to hand him over so Animal control could get him & cremate him so I could have his ashes.

      So, he lasted about 17 years, had a really good life with so much love. Everybody who met him fell in love him, he was that kind of kitty. How can a vet office do this? Turn him away when he’s dying & tell me to bring him the next day & get away with this? I cry every single day….I miss him so much….I lost my father a few months before that, so that added to it. I apologize about my long msg. but I’m so heartbroken, I don’t think I’ll ever get another cat again. So, I’m grieving my mother, father & my beloved kitty at the same time.

      1. Please give yourself some time; maybe volunteer with/at animal rescue groups; ask them about vets.Let the right one come to you.My heart hurts for your pain

      2. My heart aches for you. You gave your beautiful companion a life of love and kindness. You did good. When you are ready there will be another cat who needs your comfort and home.

      3. Barbara Schreiber Tackett

        It happen to me just a few days ago at vca allcare I got a lawyer john murrin +15623423011 animal malpractic he doing my case to get my money back .good luck and sorry for your loss.barbara Schreiber Tackett

        1. Do you have any info on your case. My cat died because of a VCA Animal Hospital. I looked at the Murrin Law website , didn’t see animal malpractice listed. I would like to contact them regarding my case.

  16. Our oldest cat lived to be 21 years old! Her name was Gretchen, she was a Bengal cat and she was an indoor only cat.

  17. I’ve had 3 mixed breed cats in the past 40 years. Each of them were indoor/outdoor cats. All 3 were neutered. Two lived to be 14 and one is still very healthy and strong at 13. She literally runs up trees. My 13 year old cat comes indoors at night so is not exposed to potentially dangerous outdoor conditions. I don’t think you can make an accurate life span judgement between indoor and outdoor cats. Unless, by outdoor, it implies that the cat never goes indoors. Most people’s cats don’t stay outdoors 24/7.

  18. Lilly was a very small very inbred farm cat. She was PTS this summer because of cancer in her gum. She lived for 20 years. I had her since 1999 as a very sick kitten. Miss the bones of her. She would lick the tears as they rolled down my face, she would always be there to offer a head but while watching TV and wake me up with a purr. She hated one of my other cats The Kracken….She would just randomly run up to him and set about him for no reason at all. Then walk off like nowts happend. She was the boss.

    I’ve a second moggy. Scott. He’s now 14. He’s in form. Issues with teeth but sorted and now gaining weight again and he’s in great form.

  19. I have a DSH that I rescued when she was 5 years old. She had FIV, so my vet said I could put her down or rehome her ( because I had another cat). I chose to take her home with me instead. She has outlived my other kitty, and in January she will be 19. I recently adopted another female, I found her outside. She is only about a year old. They get along fine!

  20. March 15th of this year my Black Silver Mackerel Tabby turned 19 he is an indoor only cat and has been his entire life. The first 17 years of his life were spent in the same building. I have had him for 13 of his years.

  21. SPEEDY
    Indoor Outdoor F-Taby. 22 Years.
    Police Brought Her to a Veterinarian where My Wife was working, She would bring her home on the weekends and then Moved in with us.

  22. My oldest cats lived to be 19 years old. All of my current cats are rescued cats–cats I rescued from the streets. Unfortunately, a lot of street cats eventually develop kidney disease if they are rescued later in life.

    I will always adopt/rescue older cats. So many people want to “bond” with a kitten. You can bond with a cat or dog of any age. Senior animals are WONDERFUL.

  23. Currently have several seniors. The oldest is 19 and extremely skinny but without specific health issues according to the vet. Throws up too much. He was a rescue at 9 years old so I don’t know anything about his life on the streets.

  24. On February 23, 2020, my best friend cat will be 20 years old. We were amazingly brought together during missionary work in Indonesia. She was spayed early so never had a litter. She’s an indoor/outdoor cat with her door flap. We’ve traveled halfway around the world together, grew up together, gotten “old” together, and are both grateful for this miraculous continuing Journey!

  25. My Cinder is 16. She has slowed down somewhat but still can jump or hoist herself up on the bed or couch whenever she feels like it. She is an indoor cat with a great little healthcare plan through Banfield Veterinary. She eats only natural food (just like her hoomin caregiver), and while I could balk at the expense since I live on a limited income, our health comes first, and that process starts for her with trustworthy brands of pet food that do not use a lot of fillers, added chemicals and preservatives or sketchy animal byproducts that could prove to be detrimental to her health.
    Sweet Pea is six. She is an active, feisty, silly thing with a whole lot of energy as well as a silky calico coat and good teeth.
    I love them both, and I hope to have them with me for many years to come.

    1. Tina, sounds like you have your cats care under good control. I’m curious as to what brand & flavors cat food you give them. Due to kidney issue, i started giving my boy canned Purina white oceanfish which he loves after rejecting everything else i offered him. He still eats his dry kibble, so i call his wet food his “treat”. . However Purina recently changed the formula for the can food adding more calories and PORK LUNGS!! EWWW!! He wont touch it and i dont blame him. What on earth do pork lungs do for a cats health anyway?? I’ve searched far & wide for something ANYTHING he will eat that is healthy food. He turns his nose up at all of it. He still comes in the kitchen asking for his ‘treat’ and gets mad at me for not giving him the one he likes, which is no longer available. I’ m VERY angry at Purina for changing the formula of the ocean whitefish, putting us in this predicament. When checking ingredients lists of all the different cat foods i am heartsick & shocked by the garbage in them. Even Rachel Rays ‘Nutrish’ has carrageenen in it! If we cant even trust her for healthy cat food WHO CAN WE TRUST??

      1. When I had my cat Dexter he was diagnosed with Chronic Kidney disease. What I gave him was Special Kitty Gourmet that I would do half and half in a container with his K/D diet dry food. The K/D diet was expensive as all get out for a 8 lb. bag was 46.00 but mixing it with the gourmet made it more affordable.
        The gourmet had no fillers and was relatively cheap for a food of it’s quality the water content was also high which is needful for kidney disease. Also taurine (a mineral that is grown from a plant I think in China).
        If I remember right the moisture content was 10% well I know taste of the wild I get for my my Maine Coon I now have since the loss of Dexter is 10% moisture. So I’ve learned a few things since my prior animal.
        My vet by the way doesn’t even know of what I’ve learned and has informed my veterinarian. I had Dexter for only another 2 yr.s after diagnosed with kidney disease but that was 2 yr.s longer than otherwise.

      2. I have been searching for the best and healthiest wet cat food for my two cats and now I feed them Tiki Cat because they use animal protein instead if plant protein which is not good for cats. I feed them wet canned food because wet food can avoid kidney problems. But one if my cats like to eat some dry food sometimes so I feed him Tiki Cat dry food. My other cat does not eat dry food at all and I am ok with that!

    2. I too would welcome your help in letting me know what brand or brands of cat food you feed Sweet Pea. Thank you very much! And my little Gracie thanks you too!

      1. When I had my cat Dexter he was diagnosed with Chronic Kidney disease. What I gave him was Special Kitty Gourmet that I would do half and half in a container with his K/D diet dry food. The K/D diet was expensive as all get out for a 8 lb. bag was 46.00 but mixing it with the gourmet made it more affordable.
        The gourmet had no fillers and was relatively cheap for a food of it’s quality the water content was also high which is needful for kidney disease. Also taurine (a mineral that is grown from a plant I think in China).
        If I remember right the moisture content was 10% well I know taste of the wild I get for my my Maine Coon I now have since the loss of Dexter is 10% moisture. So I’ve learned a few things since my prior animal.
        My vet by the way doesn’t even know of what I’ve learned and has informed my veterinarian. I had Dexter for only another 2 yr.s after diagnosed with kidney disease but that was 2 yr.s longer than otherwise.

  26. We just lost our small Maine coon girl 3 days ago. She was 19 years and eight months. She had renal problems last year that we fixed with a change in diet prescribed by the vet and Sub-Q fluids. Then she developed a tumor pushing on her lung and her breathing was very labored she died at home thankfully. We were with her. They are very glad we did not have to bring her to the vet because in a few hours that was the plan. I miss her terribly she was our child and she was a character. She was never ever a bad kitties never did anything wrong and I only missed her box once the day before she died in her whole life. We love her and miss her terribly.

    1. That’s a wonderful old age for a Maine Coon. Mine only lived to be 12 and died of heart disease. I’ve heard that is a common condition for Maine Coon.

      1. Our Maine Coon died at just over 12 yrs from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Our other one will be 13 in December and in spite of having a degenerating spinal disc and being incontinent he is still active and enjoying life

    2. Edna, i am so very sorry for the loss of your furbaby and the grief you are going thru.. You are right, they ARE our precious children, (and they dont give us the drama & stress our human kids do!)

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  28. My tonkinese just turned 19. I got him for Christmas when I was 7 and he has been with me for primary school, high school, university and now my career.

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  34. My indoor 10lb tabby is 18 yrs old this month. When she was diagnosed with kidney disease, vet said it was possible she might make it as much as 2 more years. That was 3 years ago.

    Through vigilance on my part with rx food and fluids, I’ve seen no deterioration in her condition once I got her on her Rx food/fluids. There are good and bad days though. Cold seems especially hard for her (she spends winter months burrowed deep in my down comforter all day), but when the weather is mild, she still has playful days when she wants to be chased and still demands attention and affection.

  35. We had a Siamese mix that lived to 21 years. She had two litters and was spayed. She was an indoor/outdoor cat, i.e. slept and hung out indoors but had free access to the outdoors in a suburban neighborhood. I think this is the healthiest lifestyle. I now have a male who’s about 10 years old. I also have two dogs and I think the cat sometimes acts like a dog and follows me around the yard like the dogs. But it also depends on where the cat owner lives; you’d have to have an indoor cat in a city.

  36. Our family cat, Cosmo, is 21 going on 22. Her age definitely shows but she still gets around and has a good quality of life. She was an indoor/outdoor cat her whole life; within the last year or so she voluntarily stopped going outside. She’s lived with other animals (cats and dogs) younger than her her whole life, been in TONS of fights (she was kind of aggresive when she was young), gave birth twice, been ran over by a car, lost her tail, repeatedly gone missing for days at a time, gone blind, regained her sight, and survived it all. We can tell she is on her way out and even though I know she has lived an amazing cat life it makes me so sad to think about her not being around. I have known her for basically my whole life (I am 23, my dad got her when I was two). We love our cosmo kitty and we will always remember her for the fiercely free spirit she so truly was.

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  38. Zachary R. Alexander

    I had 3 female cats. They were all mixed tabbys. The youngest cat to die, was my Tina. She was 14 years old. My oldest cat to die was about 15 1/2. Regardless, I miss my babies, I think of them every day. Now I have 3 male cats. The youngest is 2 1/2 years old. He “found” me. My oldest cat is 7. All of my cats are rescues. I try to feed them the best food that I can afford. They receive vet checks 3x a year. I’d be lost without my babies, (and I’m a guy) I’m known as “Zackycat”

  39. Amazing precision in the estimates (16.875 years) but no reference to any actual studies. “we’ve done the research”, well, not really. And the numbers get repeated over and over again, without any sources, leading to “rescues” to mandate “their” cats living indoors, with overweight and behavioral issues as a result. Don’t compare lifespans of unattended cats in feral colonies (not spayed, not vaccinated, fending for themselves) with house-cats, vaccinated, spayed and going into the house as they please with sufficient food. That’s just soooo unscientific. I guess we want everything free-range, except our cats.

    1. Kudos to You my friend. wise words in a crazy world. I think we’ve gone mad when it comes to cats. Keeping them in because of bogus statistics and scare tactics. I value freedom over security any day and so does my cat, evidenced by the fact that he chooses to go out his cat door every morning knowing full well the dangers. :)

      note: it is probably “safer” to kids inside too but there is more to life than safety.

      again – you are a breath of fresh air. TY!

    2. Love this. I feel under attack for letting my cat outside. Where do they get 2-5 years for indoor/ outdoor cats. My last boy was 16 when a bad neighbor killed him. He had lived in 5 states, about 8 homes all over the country. He was happy and free. If my new boy only lives 5yrs it will be free not caged

  40. 6 cats all mostly outdoor with access to the house the youngest was 13 when she died (cancer) and the oldest was 21. I’ve never lost a cat to a car or predator.

  41. Madonna Glazier

    Indoor male fixed just turned 15 in GOOD HEALTH. Gotten from a shelter at six weeks. Our other cat not a brother died of cancer at age 14. This cat RUNS our house I hope he outlives me.

  42. I’ve had cats for well over half a century – they all lived to at least 18. Diet I suspect was the main reason – raw meat and raw bones (sprinkled with supplements) with occasional nuggets. A note on bones: it is perfectly safe to feed your cat raw bones – repeat: raw, uncooked, unprocessed bones are OK. Raw bones granulate when crunched on – cooked bone can splinter and that is bad.

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