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Why Do People Go To Breeders?

If you are wondering what is the right cat for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about purring and learning.

  
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Bumpurr

RESPECT The- Star!
 
 
Purred: Fri Nov 26, '10 1:55pm PST 
Well, if ya think about it, the average person, can't look at a cat, and tell you what breed the cat is. Most average people would not know, the confirmation requirements of a breed cat. Most would look at what is considered the apple headed Siamese, and say with confidence, that is a Siamese. Well, no, its not, its a Siamese mix, because the purebred registered Siamese breed cats, look nothing like that.

And most people could not look at a cat, with a smushed in face, and tell you, weather its a Persian, Himalayan or an Exotic.

Breeders would know, show people would know.

And most people could not look at a LH pointed cat, with blue eyes, and tell you if its a Ragdoll or a Birman.

And actually, even if one was handed one of those cats, or can across one in a shelter, unless they have papers, one cannot say for a certain, that is a purebred cat.

And most people, when they make a statement, can back it up with facts, and not be afraid, to back up their statement. And I have read and re-read Miss P's post, and I still cannot figure out what she is talking about, and if she was so sure, she was right, she would be back on here, defending her statement, and with facts, to back it up, for those that did not believe her.

I wish she would come back, nice to hear another person's point of view, and join in the discussion.

big grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grin
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Currier

Always by my- side...
 
 
Purred: Fri Nov 26, '10 8:35pm PST 
Especially with facts! Several times, I've started threads asking for information about the cat overpopulation program, and no one was able to provide any hard facts. Maybe one person. The few others who responded generally toed the party line: overpopulation is because of breeders. Get rid of breeders and no more problems. Over and out. What is frightening, as anyone in the cat fancy knows, is that there is legislation pending that could make breeding extremely difficult--of course, this differs from state to state. I'm all for regulations regarding health, etc., but eradicating breeding will have no effect on the shelter overpopulation problem (well, maybe a very, very small effect), and simply end up with the extinction of the many breeds who make up the cat world. Short-term thinking by ailurophobes. (Shaking head with disgust emoticon.)
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Hermoine

play 23 hours a- day!
 
 
Purred: Fri Nov 26, '10 11:50pm PST 
I met the Savannah and fell in love with them. But I also have a rescue cat. And I have had rescue and PB cats. Padfoot had many health and temperament issues. So I guess I was also looking for someone who was really taking care to get healthy socialized kittens.

BTW, an applehead Siamese could be recognized as TICA is registering them (though as Thai.)
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Bumpurr

RESPECT The- Star!
 
 
Purred: Sat Nov 27, '10 7:49am PST 
I show on the CFA circuit, and when I referred to rules and such, I meant, CFA, sorry was not more clear on that, mol. laugh out loud

And TICA has classes, for New Breeds, or something to that effect, forget the exact terminology now, one of which is poly Maine Coon's, I believe, altho not certain, these cats are registered, but not eligable to show in the Championship classes, would have to look it up again. TICA also "registeres" their HHP's, and gives them titles, just like the breed cats. I only did a few TICA shows, showed HHP, and showed an Exotic for a friend.

Breeders require a kitten be spayed/neutered, along with a plethera of other requirements, some have pages and pages of requiremtent, and ya sign a contract. When you show proof of spay/neuter, you are sent the papers, and, you have already paid full purchase price, before you even take the kitten, so nobody is going to pay that kind of price, then not spay/neuter to get the papers. And along with all the other requirements, some even require a vet reference, the breeder is pretty confident, the kitten will be spayed/neutered. Never heard one story, of a breeder complaining, the buyer did not spay/neuter.

A breeder will only sell a whole kitten to a very very knowledgeable show person, who may want to show a whole kitten and/or use the kitten in a breeding program. These requirements are beyond overly pickey, they just don't hand them out like candy on halloween. The average person is not, at all, going to walk away with a whole kitten.

The reason for these very strick requirments, is the breeder has worked very hard, to find and maintaine the line he/she has, and the resulting Championship kitties. They want their line and reputation kept intact. They don't want the kitten bred with a registered kitty, of what might be considered lower or not show quality, then the line, with their name on it, is now, watered down, per say, for lack of a better word.

So, its not the breeders who are contributing to the over population, those kittens are spayed/neutered, and whole kittens sold to very responsible buyers, very responsible.

The over population is caused by the average person, who does not spay/neuter the kitten, weather is be because of ignorance, or lack or funds, or just not caring in general, or some are just too lazy, to get the kitten done.

The zillon ads you see on TV to spay/neuter your pet, are aimed at the general public, to educate them, and they have low cost spay/neuter clinics, you just have to search for them.

And if ya don't believe me, if your so sure I am wrong, ask your friends and neighbors who have kitties, if the kitty is spayed/neuter, yes, some will say yes, but the majority of them, will say no. Then ask them why, and take a min to educate them. big grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grin
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Hermoine

play 23 hours a- day!
 
 
Purred: Sat Nov 27, '10 3:13pm PST 
The local TICA show was sponsored by breeders who generally support rescue. Yep breeders are NOT the problem. I mean real breeders, not the kitten mill types. Or your neighbors down the street that wanted their children to see a litter of kittens.

BTW, I admit that TICA allows some odd things. NOt sure I really approve of deliberately breeding polydactals (though generally they have no problems) or Munchkins. OTOH, they did take back the Siamese (by calling it a Thai). And they allow Savannahs and Bengals. I can't speak re: Bengals but Savannahs are amazing cats.




--des

Edited by author Sat Nov 27, '10 3:15pm PST

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♥- Roxy- ♥

Polydactyl Maine- Coons Rule!
 
 
Purred: Sat Nov 27, '10 7:57pm PST 
TICA already allows polydactyly in Pixie Bobs, so I don't know why they're resistant to allowing it in Maine Coons since polydactyly was present from the start.

Roxy is a CFA Maine Coon, she came with CFA registration. Polydactyls can be registered with CFA they just cannot be shown (in purebred classes.)

The class where Maine Coon polydactyls can be shown in TICA is called New Traits, but a group of people are trying to get polys allowed in the championship classes too.

There are no health effects associated with the form of polydactyly that Maine Coons have. Some people believe the polydactyl Maine Coons to be more intelligent, they definitely have increased dexterity, and they tend to have heavier bone structure which is desirable-- in fact some show breeders will breed to polys for that reason (to get better bone structure.) Several judges have commented on Roxy having good bone structure, and I can definitely attest to the dexterity-- she basically has opposable thumbs which she can use to grab and hold things and to climb vertical surfaces(if there are 'toe holds'.)

Polydactyl Maine Coons have been around since the breed was created, they were part of the original native cat population Maine Coons were bred from as well as being fairly common to the breed once they were established (some sources say that 40% of Maine Coons were polydactyl in the early purebred population). When the Maine Coons were being submitted for acceptance into cat associations, the intent was for the polydactyls to be added to the standard once the breed was given full status.
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QGM- Harlequin- (Striped- Seven)

I am a show- champion!
 
 
Purred: Sat Nov 27, '10 8:03pm PST 
Just wanted to add, I agree RESPONSIBLE breeders are NOT the problem when it comes to pet overpopulation. As already said they generally are very picky about who gets their kittens and they have contracts and requirements (not to mention asking a lot of questions before letting someone have a kitten.)

If it were breeders that were the main contributors to the overpopulation problems, then most of the cats you see in shelters and pounds would be purebred and that is obviously not the case.
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Lowell

Regional Winner!
 
 
Purred: Sun Nov 28, '10 1:50pm PST 
I wrote this in one of my mammoth posts, but I suspect that some people think there are more purebreds in shelters than there really are because shelters sometimes give moggies a breed name in order to up their chances of getting adopted. I've never been in an American shelter, but if I visited one, and saw a lot of cats labeled "Turkish Angora" "Ocicat" and such, if I didn't know anything about breeds, I'd think that a lot of people were dumping purebreds on shelters, too.

On an unrelated note, Lowell made Grand Premier with the CFA at today's show. It took him only two shows--faster than Harvard. If I wanted to make him a Regional Winner, I'm sure I could, but there are two Maine Coons running neck to neck right now, and I sort of don't want to disturb their equilibrium. One of them is competing for the number one spot, and if I join the mix, although I'll never catch up with the two MCs who already have a lot of points, I will almost certainly make the MC who is close to being #1 lose his standing. Hmm...
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Hermoine

play 23 hours a- day!
 
 
Purred: Sun Nov 28, '10 8:01pm PST 
Oh gosh I stand corrected on polydactalism. Actually I met some of Hemingway's cats in Key West (well the descedents anyway). I think a good third of them are polydactals. Also I had a neighbor with a polydactal (not MC). Six was very cute and amazing. (I thought I read that it could lead to problems if deliberately bred for, not as a random thing. Perhaps I am also mistaken here.)

The breed thing with shelters is really quite funny sometimes. They will come up with all sorts of rare breeds. I would guess Turkish Angora is not so rare, it was a natural breed after all. Same with MC. However, they really can come up with odd stuff.

Also I know with dogs they like to say that some popular breed is in the mix. For instance, they will take an obvious Dachy mix and say it is a corgi mix since it is more popular.

I suppose the down side to this is that people are under the impression that there are really a very high no. of purebred cats. (Dogs are a bit different since purebred is quite common.)


--des
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Lowell

Regional Winner!
 
 
Purred: Sun Nov 28, '10 9:38pm PST 
Yes, the point about cats being unlike dogs in that most cats are simply generic is right on the mark. That is probably one reason why people who don't know cats very well always think a cat has to have a breed.

Regarding Turkish Angoras, Wikipedia has this to say:

The Turkish Angora, which was brought to the United States in 1963, was accepted as a championship pedigreed breed in 1973 by the Cat Fanciers' Association. ...While numbers are still relatively small, the gene pool and base of fanciers are growing.

Yes, Turkish Angoras are indigenous cats, and were probably brought to the West by the same route as Persians, but the cats considered true Turkish Angoras by the Turkish government were saved by a breeding program in the early 20th century. I'm assuming, as can be gleaned from the quote above, that they are still not as common as some other breeds in the U.S. In my mother's day, any long-haired (especially white) cat was called an Angora, but most of the cats I've seen on Catster who are labeled "Turkish Angora" (and basically all of the rescued ones) would be, I'm pretty sure, considered domestic long/medium hairs. I have several Turkish Angora breeder friends in Japan (for some reason the breed is rather popular here), and they produce some international winners. Turkish Angoras have a distinctive look (tall, erect ears; svelte; medium length fur), and while show quality cats may put on some weight after their show career is over, I doubt that they become as big as some of the cats on Catster who claim to be TAs. Maine Coons are different, at least partly because they are indigenous to the U.S. Their genetic influence is quite common.

Oh,and the CFA Breed Profile for TAs has this to say:

One of the most outgoing and affectionate of all cat breeds, the rare and beautiful Turkish Angora has a fascinating history and is considered a national treasure in its native land.

...

Most likely, the breed originated in the mountainous regions of Turkey, where it developed an unusually soft, medium-long coat for protection against the harsh winters. Possibly it evolved from the Manul cat, a small feline domesticated by the Tartars. This pure, natural breed can trace its written history as far back as 16th-century France. However, in the early 1900s, it was used indiscriminately in Persian breeding programs and virtually disappeared as a separate breed. For many years, all longhaired cats were referred to simply as Angoras.

Fortunately for cat lovers, controlled breeding programs had been set up in Turkey to preserve this living treasure. There, in the 1950s, at the Ankara Zoo, the Turkish Angora was discovered by American servicemen and re-introduced to the cat fancy. All Turkish Angoras registered by CFA must be able to trace their ancestry back to Turkey.

Although the first import on record arrived in the U.S. in 1954, it was not until the mid-1960s that the breed became numerous enough to seek recognition from CFA. White Turkish Angoras were accepted for registration in 1968, for Provisional Breed competition in 1970, and for Champion-ship competition in 1972. The first CFA grand champion, GC NoRuz Kristal of Azima, came in 1976. However, it took another two years before colored Turkish Angoras were permitted to compete in Championship with their all-white siblings.

If the CFA says a cat is rare, I tend to believe them!
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